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TOPIC: modes

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#136314
Re: modes 4 Years, 1 Month ago  
This discussion is all very interesting. I find the following to be also quite interesting:

10 Legendary Musicians Who Never Learned How To Read Music

1. Robert Johnson (lived 1911 - 1938)
2. Elvis Presley (lived 1935 - 1977)
3. The Beatles (1960 - 1970)
4. Jimi Hendrix (lived 1942 - 1970)
5. Tony Williams (lived 1945 - 1997)
6. Eric Clapton (born 1945)
7. Stevie Ray Vaughan (lived 1954 - 1990)
8. Eddie Van Halen (born 1955)
9. Tommy Emmanuel (born 1955)
10. Slash (born 1965)

Bill
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#136317
Re: modes 4 Years, 1 Month ago  
wrsomers wrote:
This discussion is all very interesting. I find the following to be also quite interesting:

10 Legendary Musicians Who Never Learned How To Read Music

1. Robert Johnson (lived 1911 - 1938)
2. Elvis Presley (lived 1935 - 1977)
3. The Beatles (1960 - 1970)
4. Jimi Hendrix (lived 1942 - 1970)
5. Tony Williams (lived 1945 - 1997)
6. Eric Clapton (born 1945)
7. Stevie Ray Vaughan (lived 1954 - 1990)
8. Eddie Van Halen (born 1955)
9. Tommy Emmanuel (born 1955)
10. Slash (born 1965)

Bill


Okay Bill, I get a bit your point but you call it ''how to read music'', what a bout ''how to talk a bout music''.. for a simple example, this is a C chord triad made by the root the 3 and the 5 from the scale (C D E F G A B ),it's a major step and a minor step (intervals,the space between two notes)..How would talk the boys above with each other or with the artists from the scene they where in? Mayby it was better they did'nt read music and was great fun to figure out music what sounds good( a big adventure..)

Willem
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#136319
Re: modes 4 Years, 1 Month ago  
willem wrote:
wrsomers wrote:
This discussion is all very interesting. I find the following to be also quite interesting:

10 Legendary Musicians Who Never Learned How To Read Music

1. Robert Johnson (lived 1911 - 1938)
2. Elvis Presley (lived 1935 - 1977)
3. The Beatles (1960 - 1970)
4. Jimi Hendrix (lived 1942 - 1970)
5. Tony Williams (lived 1945 - 1997)
6. Eric Clapton (born 1945)
7. Stevie Ray Vaughan (lived 1954 - 1990)
8. Eddie Van Halen (born 1955)
9. Tommy Emmanuel (born 1955)
10. Slash (born 1965)

Bill


Okay Bill, I get a bit your point but you call it ''how to read music'', what a bout ''how to talk a bout music''.. for a simple example, this is a C chord triad made by the root the 3 and the 5 from the scale (C D E F G A B ),it's a major step and a minor step (intervals,the space between two notes)..How would talk the boys above with each other or with the artists from the scene they where in? Mayby it was better they did'nt read music and was great fun to figure out music what sounds good( a big adventure..)

Willem


Hi Willem,
Notice that all 10 are guitarists. I'm positive they all knew/know how to talk about music by knowledge of intervals, chord structures, the circle of 5ths, pentatonic scales or at the very least geography of the guitar neck. However I doubt many of them knew about or were concerned with modes. I may be completely wrong about that, but that is my opinion. I brought up the point to illustrate that many great musicians play by ear. A skill/talent that is very enviable. As you point out they play what sounds good.

Bill
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#136320
Re: modes 4 Years, 1 Month ago  
wiley wrote:
Now that I have made that about as muddy as the Mississippi River, I'll try and answer Willem's question.

First, if you have not memorized in completion and in almost total recall, do so with the "Circle of Fifths". There is a direct relationship here. Secondly and just as important is to memorize the fretboard and the notes in "Normal" tuning, at a minimum the E and A strings.

Now, the question of "Why" - I have no real answer, just perhaps motivation to do so.

In no particular order;

1- to better the ability to 'hear' what's there, in the song. This comes after you begin to understand modes and progressions.

2 - to better the ability to play along with others, regardless of whether they know about circle of fifths, modes, progressions, etc.

3 - to better the ability to transcribe a song

4 - to better the ability to play a song without the need for sheet music and/or tablature, IOW - improve the ability to play by ear.

5 - As Walt posted, to recognize what 'leads' to play over which chords are in a particular key and within the progression

6 - and so on and so on

None of this is a 'must', loads of professionals never take the time to learn such. Some, like our eldest Grand Daughter have a natural (or perhaps, 'unnatural') feel and understanding of such. Yet even She has come to the realization that being able to "speak the language" allows a more complete experience. She now knows she has the need to know, in technical terms, how to 'talk' with other musicians in a 'common' tongue.

Last yet not least, research has shown one of the best ways to keep the mind/brain sharp and young is to learn an unknown (to yourself) language, a "new" language. To me, music is just that, like French or Dutch or English - a "Language".


Sorry I missed your (my) ''why'',,which I find great notes,,thank you,,still working on this stuff..and I like it..

Willem
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#136321
Re: modes 4 Years, 1 Month ago  
One of the first things I did in this thread was:

'The more I learn, the less I know, the more I change, the more I grow" a lyric from "Hope I'm doing this right" by Paul Thorn.

Willem, I have no 'real' reason why.

As for the musicians who "never" learned to read/write........more than true, Faith Hill comes to mind. Sir Paul McCartney even went as far as to state he avoided it as he thought it would drag down his 'creativity'. Perhaps he is right.

They are, in and of themselves, two different skill sets.

One, intuition.

The other, mental analysis.

Analogy #1 - Braelyn plays and sings largely by 'ear' - IOW, she 'hears' something and with a bit of thinking it out, she can play it on the keyboard. Yet, she can also sit down, open a piece of music (think 'Bach Sonata) and not only read it, but play it. She actually reads ahead of what she is playing while playing. She could do this without a lot of 'knowing' theory.

Analogy #2 - I took the time many years ago to learn as much about the math and 'Laws of Probability' to better my Poker skills. At one time I could spit out the odds of you and I each holding (first two dealt cards, which are face down and unknown to the opponent) AA, and the odds after the flop (next three cards dealt facing up) of the particular draws then available. As I went on, having now played most likely in the millions of hands, I found that some of those 'odds' we're just too outlandish and improbable, IOW - why care? So unlikely to happen.....

Yet, having never 'learned' those odds.....

Analogy 1 deals with 'intuition' in large, #2 'mental analysis'.

Combine the two and the result is, to my way of thinking (flawed as it is) becomes so much more powerful than either standing alone.
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#136322
Re: modes 4 Years, 1 Month ago  
wiley wrote:
One of the first things I did in this thread was:

'The more I learn, the less I know, the more I change, the more I grow" a lyric from "Hope I'm doing this right" by Paul Thorn.

Willem, I have no 'real' reason why.

As for the musicians who "never" learned to read/write........more than true, Faith Hill comes to mind. Sir Paul McCartney even went as far as to state he avoided it as he thought it would drag down his 'creativity'. Perhaps he is right.

They are, in and of themselves, two different skill sets.

One, intuition.

The other, mental analysis.

Analogy #1 - Braelyn plays and sings largely by 'ear' - IOW, she 'hears' something and with a bit of thinking it out, she can play it on the keyboard. Yet, she can also sit down, open a piece of music (think 'Bach Sonata) and not only read it, but play it. She actually reads ahead of what she is playing while playing. She could do this without a lot of 'knowing' theory.

Analogy #2 - I took the time many years ago to learn as much about the math and 'Laws of Probability' to better my Poker skills. At one time I could spit out the odds of you and I each holding (first two dealt cards, which are face down and unknown to the opponent) AA, and the odds after the flop (next three cards dealt facing up) of the particular draws then available. As I went on, having now played most likely in the millions of hands, I found that some of those 'odds' we're just too outlandish and improbable, IOW - why care? So unlikely to happen.....

Yet, having never 'learned' those odds.....

Analogy 1 deals with 'intuition' in large, #2 'mental analysis'.

Combine the two and the result is, to my way of thinking (flawed as it is) becomes so much more powerful than either standing alone.



Okay Wiley, now we know modes consists (gee whow invented this) and on one morning you wake up and have the idea to write song and want to write it in a certain mode (for the mood or something like that,,would you be happy you know something a bout modes or .....................................................?

Willem


PS. Bill I am glad you made your point a lot more to understand and I think you are right cos it's true
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#136323
Re: modes 4 Years, 1 Month ago  
We are getting away, in part, from Willem's original question as to 'why learn modes'

I'll agree there are those musicians who do not ever develop the need and/or want to read 'Staff Notation' nor learn theory. If you will agree there are those who went on further in their carrer to explore such and found that it opened so many doors.

Jaco Pastorius, one of the 'innovators' on Bass relays this better than I ever can.

Is theory and/or 'reading' necessary? Need look no further than the artist listed in Bill's post.

Notation was used before the existence of recording devices, or radio, or TV, or even the wide spread availability of 'electricity' in the home. It was the way music was shared between musicians. Today, it's just one of the many methods available to us. There is no longer the 'need' so much for strict musical notation.

Theory, and the guts of such like modes, is a formula for understanding what's going on. A 'mathematical' sort of thing. Is it necessary? Probably not. Especially nowadays.
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#136325
Re: modes 4 Years, 1 Month ago  
Let's break down those Paul Thorn lyrics;

'The more I learn the less I know" sounds sorta backwards, does it not?

It's actually, to me, an explanation as to your original question. I've never heard a more true statement though,

I began studying for my Masters with an opening talk with one of the best in the industry. He went on to explain and in the end, "learning all this stuff to pass the test is in actuality, a license to forget'.

IOW - the more we stuff into our brain, the more our brain becomes 'cloudy'. Especially short term.

To me, there are two parts to this. Learning is one, applying is the other. For those of us who are not 'gifted' we can decide on two distinct paths. Stick with simple stuff, three chord and four chord songs. Or, try and further ourselves by learning how the music 'works'. Then, learning how to 'apply' that knowledge.
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